Early Lionel O locos with GOLD handrails 150 and 700 series

[Terry]

 My first early locos were a maroon 150 and a dark green 152 that belonged to the neighbor's grandfather. (It was also the first train deal I did at about 8 or 9 nine years old.)

The green 152 had gold painted handrails. ( I added the second when I was about 13.) I never paid any attention to the handrails.

Paul Wasserman showed me a 152 with gold handrails and said Jim Lyons had suggested that 150 series locos with Gold Painted handrails were specials.

Then I started looking at handrails. That was about 15 years ago.

Since then I've found a bunch and come up with three reasons for them based on looking at them, and considering all of my early O Lionel trains.

I think Jim may be correct about some of them. Short of finding boxed sets we can't prove or disprove that. I've never seen a box for just a 150 or 700 series loco. Does anyone have one?

The second reason - again I can't prove this, but it makes sense, is the ladies who painted the standard gauge locos that always had gold handrails, painted the O locos because they were used to doing it.

The third posible reason is after Lionel introduced the 250 series locos with their brass trim, and stopped making the 150 series locos, they assembled all the parts into locos and dressed them up to match the current line and sold them off.

This third reason explains the 156X with pedestal headlight and 250 seriesmotor. It explains the bright colored locos like the 154s in both body styles painted light olive.

I can't prove any of this, but it makes sense. This is the type of discussion I started this board for. What do you think?

So here are bunch of the locos I have with gold handrails:

Pictures are a bit wide for the forum. I don't want to change the sizes of them because these are inventory pictures I have on my phone. You can right click and select view image to open the whole picture. Then use the back button to come back here.



701b1 NYC oval on left, 701 on right, dark green, green vents, GOLD PAINTED HANDRAILS, type 2 motor with slots for trucks, red fiber pickup with manufacturing plate, diecast wheels, riveted couplers.

This is the only 700 series loco I have with gold handrails. I got a photo by email of a 732 Quaker loco with gold handrails when I sent pictures of this out last summer. The other Quaker locos I've seen don't have gold handrails.

   

 

152b1 Dark green Gold Painted handrails, type 4 motor with riveted brushes, red fiber with corp plate. No hole for 153 reverse. This is the loco I got when I was a kid.

   

152j1 Mohave Gold Painted handrails, type 4 motor with riveted brushes, black fiber with corp plate. No hole for 153 reverse. This might be one of the clean out locos, but there is no hole for reverse?

I don't have a 153 with gold handrails.

Here's some 154s. . .

   

154a1 Dark green with GOLD painted handrails, type 2 motor with slots for trucks, black fiber plate with manufacturing plate, cast iron wheels, stamped couplers, pedestal light, NO reverse, square roof with clipped corners, early body/frame.

 

 

154a4 Dark green with gold painted handrails, type 4 motor with riveted brushes, black fiber with nickel background corp plate , diecast wheels, stamped couplers, strap headlight no holes for pedestal, hand reverse mounted to motor, rounded roof without clipped corners, early body/frame.

 

 

These are what I think of as clean outs. The motors in them are late motors. Others I've seen match these so the motors probably were switched out later.  I'm using the newest Greenberg 0 gauge book terminiology and mostly the lettering scheme which tries to have the letters in order of manufacture. 

 

154c1 Olive green with gold painted handrails, type 4 motor with riveted brushes, black fiber corp plate, diecast wheels, stamped couplers, strap headlight no holes for pedestal, hand reverse mounted to frame, square roof without clipped corners, late body/frame.

 

154d1 Olive green with gold painted handrails, type 5 motor with brush tubes, black fiber corp plate, diecast wheels, stamped couplers, strap headlight no holes for pedestal, hand reverse mounted to frame, square roof with clipped corners, early body/frame.

Finally some 156 locos. . .

   

156d1 Olive green with gold painted handrails, type 5 motor with brush tubes, red fiber with corp plate, diecast wheels with simulated spokes, stamped couplers, strap headlight, holes in diecast wheels, weighted trucks. This loco looks mohave unless it is set beside a mohave loco when it looks greener.

I know there is a 12 wheel maroon 156 with goldpainted handrails, but I don't have one. It'd look like the 156Xc1 4 wheeler below but with pony trucks.

156x

 

   

156xb1 Dark green with gold painted handrails, type 4 motor w/riveted brushes, red fiber plate with corp plate, diecast wheels with simulated spokes, stamped couplers, strap headlight.
 
 

156Xc1 Maroon with gold painted handrails, type 2 motor with brush tubes, pickup collector replaced, diecast wheels with simulated spokes, stamped couplers, strap headlight.

That's it.

Thoughts?

[early0electric]

I believe the gold handrails were applied to loco's that were for some reason not regular production, either in parts used or not used, also on those that were part of a special, perhaps DSS, or non-regular production set. Not regular production would include odd color locos be they factory repaints or colored locos used in production sets. I have a boxed 164 set with a 154 with orange cars and a 162 set with a 152 and orange cars. Both locos have gold handrails. Besides these special sets and odd color loco's in my collection I also have a 154 stamped 152 with no reverse which has gold handrails which would also fall into the not regular production category. I'm not sure I agree with your 2nd or 3rd reasons.

[Terry]

I'm adding a note to this thread becuase I want to keep it current with my thoughts.

Jim posted the Lionel 1915 87 rheostat]https://www.train99.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.0]Lionel 1915 87 rheostat, and I got to looking at Lionel addresses.

The Lionel address changed in 1926.  That fits this:

"The third posible reason is after Lionel introduced the 250 series locos with their brass trim, and stopped making the 150 series locos, they assembled all the parts into locos and dressed them up to match the current line and sold them off."

I sent a request to the TCA library to see if they have any information about Lionel's 1925 move or sales from that period.

I also redid the pictures in the first post so they use the new forum photo scheme.

[early0electric]

The change of address relates to the Lionel Showroom and executive offices. I don't follow how that fits your theory. In 1924 when Lionel released the 253, 254, and 256 they also released the 153. Why stock more parts and more operations to an existing loco if they were being phased out? I can understand going from wire handrails to clip on handrails as you wouldn't need stanchions or solder or the wire rod. But to upgrade from a cost standpoint for a product going away, doesn't make sense to me. By the way every Lionel color catalog from 1915 to 1926 with early square body electric O gauge locos shows them all with gold handrails even though the description says "Highly polished Nickel steel".

[Terry]

Jim, you're right. The factory being in NJ does not help my theory. 

While the 153 was new in 1924, I see it as an upgrade of the 152 rather than a new loco.  The only new part on the 153 is the bent wire for the reverse rod. They also punched a new hole in the motor side frame and the  cab end.

The 153 was also cataloged in 1925. They would have been taking orders for 1925 catalog items into the early summer of 1926 so they wouldn't need to do anything to get rid of them. Also after 1925, the shell was used on the 152 for 2 more years so they wouldn't have to do anything to get rid of the parts.

Good points though. Thanks. . .   This is what I want from the forum. Back and forth and maybe we can find some answers.

I took the day off so I spent more time with this. . .

Lori, the TCA Librarian, pointed me to a book about Frank Pettit. "It Comes From Within."

The book on page 13 top right column quotes Pettit:

"We moved the whole company from East 21st Street to East 26th street over the Holiday. We put it in good shape."

Page 14 says new showroom on second floor and has more information:

Lionel also rented a basement floor "one city street long" to stock with merchandise for wholesale pickups.

I think "rented a basement floor" means it was temporary during the move.

Then the book goes on to talk about setting up the showroom.

The Librarian also sent information about early Madison Hardware relationship:

The White Street book has information on the agreement between Madison Hardware, Lionel Manufacturing and Pfleghar Hardware Specialty Company (Winchester Ave - New Haven Connecticut) when Lionel stopped production at White Street.  Madison Hardware had an "agreement to warehouse unsold and unfinished inventories during and after the shutdown" of White Street.  This was back in 1908/1909.  According to the book, Lionel's objective in 1909 was to "work with the Madison Hardware & Supply Co. to sell the inventoried White Street products out of East 29th street and the manufactured products out of Winchester Avenue..."

That seems to mean to me that in 1910 Lionel moved to New Haven and left the existing NYC inventory with Madison Hardware to be sold. I don't know if that relates to what they did in the mid- 1920s,but it is interesting.

I also asked the Lori about Lionel service order forms.

I have or had a late 1920s Lionel service or repair form that offered painting of trains and said there would be a delay as they waited until the selected color was used in the paint room.  My memory says it was an order type form listing repair services.  Do you have a copy of that?

She says the TCA library has nothing that early. Maybe one of you has one?

One last point. . .

I know that during WW2 Lionel assembled parts into trains and sold them. I had a 3814 Merchandise car shipped in a 385 Tender box with a hang tag saying it was assembled from parts. The car looked like a normal car. The same man had a pair of 022 switches that were 042 manual bases with 022 motors wired to the two short rails for the non derailing feature also from 1943. I have those here and will post information in the future. I got letters with that stuff where the man was trying to order trains and Lionel was saying sorry or items built from parts.

Lou Hertz wrote about an O gauge gondola made by Lionel using observation railing material and a base from a 4 wheel car.

Maybe the idea that the weird stuff is the service people fixing trains or putting them together from existing parts is the answer?

Thanks.

[early0electric]

In regards to the gondola, it was made for an early tinplate collector by the name of D L Olney at his persistence with the Lionel factory that he wanted an "820 series" gondola. They ran a string of observation railing and attached it to a 820 boxcar frame and painted it light green.
 

[early0electric]

Now the  152/153 story is the same as the 701/706 story. Why have 2 locomotives with the only difference being that one is reversible. When the 150 series came into being in 1917 the 701/706 became just the 154. Why carry 2 locomotives for only 2 years? Just upgrade, if you feel you must, the 152 to a reversible loco. Then you don't have to inventory two of basically the same thing. They still had the 150 for their low end / beginner outfits. Same motor with the same power as a 156, just in a smaller body. Left over 152's could be sold separate or in outfits to wholesalers which I'm sure they did with all old stock (or send it to Madison Hardware!). The reverse arm on a 153 was probably not a cheap part to produce. It had to be clinched on one end and punched to make the head that keeps the arm in the hand reverse unit. It also has to be threaded on the other end and go through a series of 3 bends. Don't forget about Nickel plating. And then there's the knob/thumb nut. Mike (not Jim)
 

   

[Terry]

Mike, now that you point out the rod is complicated. The knob is a binding post nut found on accessories of the period. Two years and then back to just selling the 152. They are common as dirt so I don't want to say they were a failure. Maybe thinking changed as they developed more of the brass plate trains?

I do have a 153 without a reverse. The holes have paint in them so you can tell it never had one. I bought it because it's grey. Came in a set with 602/603 cars in orange.

 

I have a bunch of 154 locos. Some don't have reverse units, most do. I don't know ifthey were altered or sold that way. Never really looked closely.

That gondola was in CO for a while and for sale on ebay along with an orange/black 822 caboose. I didn't have the money then.

[early0electric]

HA, Neither did I! I also saw them at YORK before they went to NETTE.
 

 

 

[starfire700]

I remember an odd color 810 crane as part of this group. I think it was in Hiawatha colors.

[early0electric]

Yes. And it was later offered on eBay as part of a Hiawatha freight set. Most of the cars were custom painted but the 810 was original if my memory is correct.
 

[starfire700]

This set was alleged to be from Louis Hertz.
Finish is very vintage OD and painted as I would think a "paint sample" might be. It is painted from the top only, all undersides show original production finishes.
From the matching low-hood couplers, I assume it was proposed 1941 or 42, just before production switched to US Navy instruments. The Victory streamliner, R/W/B Flying Yankee, had a similiar heritage, except that it actually made it to an advance catalog in 1942. I have a recreation, from the 1980's of the Victory set.
Both of these sets can be seen in action in one of my Youtube videos, Lake Shore Railway Streamliners.

[early0electric]

This is from the Hertz collection, described on page 216 of his book "Collecting Model Trains".
 

[starfire700]

Photos of my recreation of the Victory Streamliner
Has anyone out there ever seen a real/vintage prototype of this set.
I believe it is only shown in the 1942 advance catalog.

[Terry]

Mike - I don't have that book. What's the story on the green boxcar? Is it dark green or olive?

I have dark olive 601/602 cars that came from Lou Redmond's collection. No lettering, not overpainted. I don't know if they are original paint or if they are really old repaints.  I know Paul has a green 203 tank, and think maybe they go together.

I'll get pictures of those.

I also have an orange 820 with no lettering.  I don't kn ow the story of it, other than it came from the wilds of NJ.