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Discussion Boards => Collector Corner => Topic started by: Terry on May 25, 2020, 01:02:18 AM

Title: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on May 25, 2020, 01:02:18 AM

I've gone way down the rabbit hole in my collecting of 33 locos. I'm close to having two dozen of them. A lot of them are similar looking, but have different body parts.

I look at three areas of the body. . . The headlight hood, the center section or cab, and the bell hood. You cannot change these parts as they are soldiered together and then painted.

I collect based on headlights. There are three types of headlights and three types of hoods to match them.

 

• A - Earliest style with slide on headlight.
• Ab - transition with slots for slide on headlight and an extra hole for a pedestal headlight.
• B - Middle style with pedestal headlight.
• C - Last style with strap headlight.

Here's pictures of the type B (front) and Ab (back):

 

Here's a shot of the inside of Ab showing the slots:

 

I also collect based on the bell hoods. There are 4 types of bell hoods:

• A - Earliest style with two holes. This hood is the same hood without the ears for the slide on headlight.
• B - Middle style with 3 holes. This is the same as the pedestal headlight hood.
• C - Second middle with 3 holes with end hole larger for binding post.
• D - Last style with 2 holes with end hole larger for binding post.

The hoods should match up chronologically. Like this:

• A) Slide on hood comes with A) 2 hole bell hood.
• Ab) Slide on hood with pedestal headlight comes with A) 2 hole bell hood.
• B) Pedestal hood comes with B - Middle style with 3 holes. This is the same hood on both ends.
• B) Pedestal hood comes with C - Second middle with 3 holes with end hole larger for binding post. 
• C) Strap hood comes with C - Second middle with 3 holes with end hole larger for binding post. 
• C) Strap hood comes with D - Last style with 2 holes with end hole larger for binding post.
• C) Strap hood comes with strap hood on bell side. I don't know if this is a factory error or if this is last production. See post on 5-28-2020 for more on this.

FROM HERE DOWN THIS THREAD HAS INFORMATION about the different hoods as we figure out changes to the lists above.

I think there should be locos out there with pedestal headlights on one end and the type A 2-hole bell hood. 

It would be either in dark green or black with a u-frame and either 6 or 4 cast iron wheels.

But I haven't found one yet.
From the side it would look like this. . .

 

But that's not it. That's just the earliest pedestal version with the same hood on both ends.

Here's a close up:

 

But if you look closely there is something odd about this loco.

Here's the weird black loco next to a dark olive loco that is identical in all features except the odd handrails.

 

This is the first one of these I've seen.

While I'm on the subject of hoods, I think there should be very late locos with two strap headlight hoods and no binding posts. The 38 and 42 locos are found this way, but I haven't seen a 33 yet. More on late versions without binding posts later.

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Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: starfire700 on May 25, 2020, 04:38:56 AM

I don't think I have ever seen one with a slide-on type headlight.
I have always separated 33's by frame type, straight type and U-frame, but haven't gone as far down the rabbit hole as you have.
I think I have had a late one with 2 strap headlights, but sold it.
Another thing that has confused me is the "Lionel Lines NY USA" stamp that appears on Standard and O cars and locos.
I first thought this was only MFG production, but have seen it on Corp items too. Any thoughts on dates for this end-stamp?

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on May 25, 2020, 12:24:50 PM

The little Lionel Lines stamp is on the earliest O gauge so it was used in 1915 or before. It was used until 1921, maybe even later. I say 1921 because my orange 35/36 passenger cars have the stamps and that set was first cataloged in 1921.

Here's the stamp on a 42 loco:

 

The earliest standard gauge locos aren't marked as Lionel anywhere. Sometime in 1912 or 13 they started using a reverse plate with Lionel Manufacturing on it. The 33 didn't get the reverse until later so it got a paper stamp inside.

 

That's a U frame loco with 4 cast iron wheels. Dates from 1913 to maybe as late as 1915? That stamp was also used on setboxes. Maybe the O gauge setbox collectors know when it was used?

That is the only loco I've seen with the paper stamp, but they'd fall off, and few collectors are as interested as me so they might be ignored on collector's shelves.

One more note about dating -- you can't date a 33 or 38 by reading the reverse plate. I have locos made well into the 1920s with mfg reverse plates.

Title: Re: Lionel Lines stamp
Post by: early0electric on May 26, 2020, 09:18:20 AM

As far as I know, the last use of this stamp in O gauge was on the maroon 610 612 passenger cars included with a 156X in Outfit 169. This Outfit was available through 1924. The last appearance on O gauge freight cars was 1918. Some 700, 701, and 706 Loco's have this stamp. I have not seen it on a 703.  You can find it on dark green 600 Pullmans. It was on the dark green 610-612 cars with hook couplers. I do not have nor have I observed the stamp on Mojave cars or dark green cars with combination or latch couplers, only on hook coupler 610 and 612's. I also know of the stamp on a 601.

Mike

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on May 26, 2020, 10:23:19 AM

Mike - What about the paper stamp? Do you have boxed sets with that on it? The one I saw had it beside the set number on the end label.

Title: Re: Lionel Lines paper stamp
Post by: early0electric on May 26, 2020, 04:58:22 PM

Terry - I have 2 early outfits with boxes. One has the stamp near the 42. The other box does not.  I have a picture or two of other boxes with the sticker in the same area, one being Standard gauge. I also have a pic of the stamp inside the cab of a 5 or 6. I don't remember which. I'd post pics but apparently mine are too big.

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: starfire700 on May 27, 2020, 04:33:47 AM

It sounds like I am not the only one having trouble with sizing photos so they will upload to the site.
Terry, can you provide any guidance? I have a photo sizing program, but it is hit-miss and time-consuming getting a photo to a compatible size.
I also have a 33 with the paper Lionel MFG label inside.
I have a 114 boxcar that has both the Lionel Mfg Co NY emboss and the Lionel Corporation data stamp on the underside. I will try to get these photos posted.

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: starfire700 on May 27, 2020, 06:54:52 AM

Here are photos of my black U-frame 33 with MFG sticker inside. It does not have Lionel MFG NY USA stamped on end.

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on May 28, 2020, 01:27:44 PM

I found a 33 with the strap headlight hood on both ends. I bought it from the original owner's grandaughter on eBay so I'm reasonably sure the motor hasn't been swapped and the two cars I got are correct. I also got a 121 station with 4 high windows.

Here's the loco:

 

Better view of bell end:

 

This is just a common late teens early 1920s loco. I don't know if it's a factory error, or a late production when they just didn't care. We need to find more of these.

The cars might be a better clue. They have three hole steps, no air tanks, the small lionel lines and number stamps on ends by doors. Couplers are last hook style with tabs.

 

I have the same cars with crinkle couplers and black detail around the end doors:

 

I haven't unpacked all the 35/36 type cars I have yet.

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on September 06, 2020, 04:00:31 PM

Here's a 33 with the strap headlight hood on both ends listed on eBay. Same shell as the one I bought, but with a super motor and combo latch couplers. I think the roof has been touched up, and some of the screws are obviously wrong. I won't be bidding on this so have at it if you want it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Standard-Gauge-LIONEL-NEW-YORK-CENTRAL-LINES-33-ENGINE-LOCOMOTIVE/203099215041?hash=item2f49a814c1:g:YuQAAOSwB7lfVNA5 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Standard-Gauge-LIONEL-NEW-YORK-CENTRAL-LINES-33-ENGINE-LOCOMOTIVE/203099215041?hash=item2f49a814c1:g:YuQAAOSwB7lfVNA5)

I found the last one in May, that's just over 3 months to find a second one.

Title: Re: Lionel 33 Loco Body Types
Post by: Terry on October 15, 2020, 05:17:45 PM

I just got a six wheel 33 in the mail today. I thought it was the same as the one I already had, but I wanted the cars that were with it. They look the same:

 

When I compared them, I noticed the light hood was an early style with tabs for the slide on headlight, but the tabs were flattened and then a hole was drilled to mount the pedestal headlight.

Here's a comparison:

 

Here's a shot of the inside of the odd one:

 

Ed P. told me a while back on the phone that 34 locos came this way, but this 33 is from the end of production. Interesting.

I've added this version to the lsits in the first post in this thread to keep it up to date.