Post by: starfire700 on May 28, 2020, 05:03:10 AM
16 ballast car numbered 190, is probably a Cohen remake from long ago.
I am showing it as the design shows that he must have had knowledge of the 16 prototype that Terry showed in his post about adjusting photo sizes.
Post by: starfire700 on May 28, 2020, 05:05:07 AM
Post by: starfire700 on May 28, 2020, 05:06:30 AM
Post by: early0electric on August 02, 2020, 03:49:24 PM
Post by: Terry on August 02, 2020, 04:14:51 PM
I have orange cars that came with a maroon 150.
600i1 Orange, 600 on one end to right of door, regular wheels, white corp stamp on bottom. Have 2.
Here's the loco:
150d2 Maroon, type 4 motor with riveted brushes, red fiber with corp plate. This is beat up, but came in set with orange 600 Pullmans.
I assume that orange 610/612 cars exist since every other passenger car (O and STD) from the 1921-24 period is found in orange. Never heard of them, but maybe someday.
Post by: early0electric on August 03, 2020, 11:45:59 AM
Post by: Terry on August 04, 2020, 06:31:19 PM
Post by: starfire700 on August 06, 2020, 05:11:20 AM
820 Boxcar orange with original tuscan brown roof
800 Wabash boxcar
end stamps on 800 and 820
the Wabash 800 has the Lionel data stamp and number on BOTH ends
Last photo also shows end-stamp on NYNHH 801 caboose
Post by: starfire700 on August 06, 2020, 05:14:31 AM
also 901 Lake Shore gondola in olive and its end-stamp
also a Pennsylvania 901
Post by: starfire700 on August 06, 2020, 05:18:26 AM
600 pullman in dark olive. Note it has a gold stripe under windows and no evidence of NYC Lines lettering over windows. I also have a dark green 600 with gold stripe and no lettering over windows.
Has anyone else noticed this ????
Last is a Manufacturing Directions booklet
Post by: starfire700 on August 06, 2020, 05:41:58 AM
Also an interesting set I got #168, contains a light olive 154 and orange 602 baggage with 603 pullmans.
Close up of 154 and the end of the set box. Per set book, this should be 154, 601, 601, 602
Post by: starfire700 on August 06, 2020, 05:42:54 AM
Post by: early0electric on August 06, 2020, 11:23:46 AM
Post by: early0electric on August 06, 2020, 11:43:48 AM
Post by: Terry on August 06, 2020, 01:46:10 PM
About the 820 boxcar with brown roof. I am interested in the data stamp. The one Jim just posted has 4 lines with each line shorter than the one above it. Like an inverted pyramid.
I have that car. NONE of my other cars have that data stamp. The common 4 line stamp has the MCB line (3rd down) longer than the ones above and below it. Like the car below:
The car above has a number in an odd font. Sans Serif.
The data stamp was used on the 12 and 16 hopper cars in standard, and on the 820 boxcar in O. Does the inverted pyramid stamp come on the standard cars?
The dark green 600 come with and without the gold stripe, and with and without the lettering over the windows. I haven't seen a car without a stripe and without a NYC over the windows.
Here's a car for you to look for:
Post by: early0electric on August 06, 2020, 02:22:42 PM
Post by: Terry on August 08, 2020, 04:31:55 PM
Here's an interesting 117 caboose. Red caboose in front missing last number and the 3rd R. Both sides are like that. The brown caboose in the back is double stamped.
They changed the copula roofs and the way they were painted. I have both brown and red with the different roofs. There may be a square roof painted black, or a rounded roof in the body color? Or both.
The brown car with black copula has dimple trucks. The square red roof car has combination latch couplers. Either could be the newest car. Or they could have been changed over the years.
I never got into these cabooses so I only have the four shown. I think all are corp cars even though some aren't marked.
Post by: starfire700 on August 09, 2020, 06:37:29 AM
The 330 crossing is mentioned, but not pictured in the TCA book Standard of the World. It has a sticker on the back with #330 faintly visible.
Post by: starfire700 on August 09, 2020, 06:39:01 AM
Post by: early0electric on August 10, 2020, 03:44:27 PM
Post by: Terry on August 15, 2020, 01:54:08 PM
Here's the picture from the eBay listing:
An eBayer sent me a request to buy the car for $75. My first reaction was yes I'll sell it for $75, but then decided to take a look at the car.
It says "The Lionel Lines" over the windows.
I put a note on it and took it back downstairs. I don't have matching cars to put with it. It's a late car with oil label and just the number on the end:
The trucks don't have slots for lights, but this came as part of a group of cars where the former owner had switched parts. He might have switched the lights onto another car.
The former owner upgraded it by adding lights to the rear deck. Looks neat, but not a variation.
Neat.
Post by: starfire700 on August 17, 2020, 07:48:49 AM
Post by: starfire700 on August 17, 2020, 07:52:03 AM
The 190 has a total of 6 lights added: 2 tail lights, 2 interior floor lights and 2 fancy blue ceiling-mount lights in porcelain fixtures. As can be seen, the wiring is a mess, so would require some work to get them all working.
Post by: Terry on August 22, 2020, 02:19:27 PM
Here's one that was played with:
That's a factory repaint over state brown!
Post by: starfire700 on August 23, 2020, 12:06:18 PM
I actually bought a set form an older couple a long time ago. It was EX in box, because was bought for a child who was ill and eventually passed away. It was a lonely train.
Post by: starfire700 on August 23, 2020, 12:16:12 PM
I have a 3 piece O Gauge 106 and a standard gauge 104 center-span, both with early boxes. Only the 110 O-gauge center span listing in the TCA Standard of the World book, mentions with or without wood finials. I have them in O and Standard.
Post by: starfire700 on August 23, 2020, 01:38:06 PM
Post by: early0electric on August 24, 2020, 11:27:12 AM
Post by: Terry on August 24, 2020, 01:34:34 PM
I've seen and had those bridges. Don't know what I have downstairs as they are still packed.
The standard gauge bridge comes in olive or girard green - same color as light green 812 gondola with latch coupler.
Post by: starfire700 on August 25, 2020, 04:51:00 AM
Post by: early0electric on August 26, 2020, 08:42:09 AM
Post by: Terry on August 26, 2020, 01:04:36 PM
Maybe the lettering was done so wrong it was rejected. You can wipe the lettering off for a short time after it is applied. After that time it would smear and ruin the shell.
Post by: early0electric on August 26, 2020, 02:40:12 PM
Post by: starfire700 on August 27, 2020, 05:38:55 AM
Post by: Terry on August 27, 2020, 12:38:58 PM
I have a Lionel Service order form that listed painting as an option. I have it around here somewhere, but don't know where. From late 1920s it says painting will be done when the color selected is used so there may be a delay.
Post by: early0electric on August 27, 2020, 01:05:24 PM
Post by: starfire700 on August 27, 2020, 01:10:21 PM
Post by: early0electric on August 27, 2020, 02:04:21 PM
Post by: Pre-WarGuy on August 27, 2020, 06:24:16 PM
But here is my reply anyway:
I like the two green passenger cars. One with New York Central without gold line, and the car next to it without NYC but with the gold line. An interesting pair to picture together.
There certainly are many interesting cars mentioned in the postings.
Thanks!
Post by: starfire700 on September 03, 2020, 06:38:24 AM
A different woman was on the painting station that day
A department store requested a variation, and the variation was over-run
A certain part ran-out and the line had to keep going, so a substitution was made
Too many items were painted in a certain color, so they need to be repainted in the color of sets we are making to fill a current order
or my favorite......"We are just making toys, so get them assembled and out the door".
Don't get me wrong, my collection contains many difficult or unusual variations. Concentration on variations has helped me limit the amount of trains that I have, but I still have too much.
There is plenty of room for both science and just plain fun in collecting.
I think that Ward Kimball may have been telling us to keep it fun, with some of his TTOS Bulletin cover designs........
Post by: early0electric on September 03, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Post by: starfire700 on September 05, 2020, 04:43:47 AM
You may be able to tell that most of my professional career was involved in retail.
I have heard it said that at American Flyer, day-workers were hired off the street. It makes a lot of sense when you try to add up all the trim variations on 1930's wide gauge freight cars.
But as you confirmed, we need to step-back and realize trains were just factory-produced toys, produced by workers who had no idea that their work would be studied like a science one day.
Collecting and chasing items on my "must have list" for over 45 years, also makes me think now that having fun with and sharing info about trains is more fun than the pursuit.
Back in the 80's when Ward Kimball was doing the TTOS covers, I thought that he was just a crazy, rich old man. He was that, but was also having a heck of a lot of fun.
Post by: Terry on September 05, 2020, 12:57:21 PM
That's why I like the common 33 and 38 locos. I laid them out in what I think is the order of production, and then went seeking variations that should exist.
In the past few months I bought a black 33 without a binding post from 1913, and a dark olive 33 with block lettering from 1912. One was 10 times as much money as the other, but both were just as exciting. The cheap one might have even been more fun because it proved something I'd thought, rather than just being another known variation I was seeking.
I consider the above items production variations. Changes made by design. Usually these are done to lower costs, but sometimes it's done for improvement. Adding binding posts is an example of a change done to improve sales. Changing O gauge couplers from rivet to tab mounting is lowering costs.
One thing I quickly learned was Lionel was not into FIFO for some parts. That's "First In First Out." For example the reverse units introduced in about 1912 have a plate that says Lionel MFG on it. In 1918 this was changed to Lionel CORP. The MFG plates are found on trains as late as 1925.
I don't consider the reverse plate lettering a variation, or valid for dating purposes.
Speaking of Ward Kimball's TTOS covers. The covers represented the TTOS theme.
The TTOS group was started to mock the TCA. How else can you explain articles in the bulletin about how to kill garden slugs with trains?
The TCA were "serious folks" who had trains on shelves and counted rivets. TCA members dressed and acted like George Clooney. TTOS members were drunkards and simpletons like a Steve Martin character who had demolition derbies and contests to see who could do the worst job of repainting a train.
TTOS wanted to be the FUN people. The big annual TTOS meets had free booze. The only time I ever saw free booze at a TCA meet was the Valley Forge Convention when the hotel gave us booze and snacks while they found us rooms because the convention hotel had an event that went over and the rooms weren't available.
Post by: early0electric on September 07, 2020, 08:51:40 AM
Post by: Terry on September 07, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
That is wonderful.
Post by: early0electric on September 10, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Post by: Terry on September 10, 2020, 09:18:22 PM
Mine has late hoods with one hole and two slots for headlight. Gold handrails, hand reverse early type frame with horizontial screws, and type 4 motor with type 5 pick up plate. With the cab off, you can see it still has the original wires and it's a factory repaint and was originally dark olive green. In the chronology mine would go between pages 113 and 115 in the book.
Here's some pictures:
There's an error on the 154 listing on page 115 of the book. Says "7. Reverse switch mounted between motor side frames." Same error on page 117. Both those locos have the late bodies with the reverse mounted on the frame.
I saw a MAROON 154 once. It's the one that got away. I saw it in a liveauction in Maine back in the early internet days. Maybe 1998 or 99. I bid 500 for it, and it sold on the next bid at 525.
Post by: Terry on September 10, 2020, 09:49:36 PM
Hey -- That's a round roof too!
Here's the auction. . .
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6117734_686-nette-rare-lionel-154-maroon-electric (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6117734_686-nette-rare-lionel-154-maroon-electric)
The live auctions don't go back all the way. Or maybe the one I saw was on a different platform. The Maroon 154, the olive green tank and any 706 loco are my hot wants.
Post by: early0electric on October 03, 2020, 03:53:29 PM
Post by: early0electric on October 04, 2020, 02:18:15 PM
Post by: early0electric on October 05, 2020, 04:02:06 PM
Post by: Terry on October 05, 2020, 08:20:58 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-VIntage-Train-Standard-Gauge-Tinplate-Base-Pair-Of-Trucks-amp-Coupler-/124357040138?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Ijn0GwyW4WrDOneQHIHMyyDe6OU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-VIntage-Train-Standard-Gauge-Tinplate-Base-Pair-Of-Trucks-amp-Coupler-/124357040138?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Ijn0GwyW4WrDOneQHIHMyyDe6OU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc)
Post by: early0electric on October 06, 2020, 10:45:22 AM
Post by: Terry on October 06, 2020, 01:11:12 PM
https://www.tcadd.org/news/2020/Oct2020_news.pdf (https://www.tcadd.org/news/2020/Oct2020_news.pdf)
Post by: early0electric on October 06, 2020, 02:54:32 PM
Post by: Terry on October 07, 2020, 09:41:26 PM
I remember going to the post office to get a money order so it had to have been a new experience.
I paid $11.xx for it including the shipping. I gave it to my dad for Christmas which is why I think it was in December.
It's missing a headlight and the base. It's a 25th anniversary paperweight.
I have it sitting on an 11 flatcar.
Post by: Terry on January 15, 2021, 10:48:04 PM
822f3 NYC oval in black, maroon sides, one end has 822 to right of door, gold corp stamp on bottom, trucks without slots.
Didn't spot the error? Here's a clue:
No copula window on one side. Oddly the factory error Wabash caboose I have is the same era as it's my 822F2. I try to use the same letters Mike used in the Greenberg book.
Post by: early0electric on January 16, 2021, 11:20:50 AM
Post by: Terry on January 16, 2021, 01:25:54 PM
Post by: starfire700 on January 18, 2021, 04:41:39 AM
Post by: CNJRR on January 18, 2021, 12:02:20 PM
It is a postwar motor and chassis.
The body???
https://www.train99.com/forum/index.php?topic=115.0
Post by: early0electric on January 19, 2021, 08:22:45 PM
Post by: early0electric on February 17, 2021, 04:01:51 PM
Post by: starfire700 on February 19, 2021, 04:29:31 AM
Post by: early0electric on April 27, 2021, 09:33:16 PM
Next item is the 068 warning sign. But this one happens to be painted orange with painted black lettering. The base also has holes in it as if they were thinking of making a lighted or a moveable accessory out of it.
Post by: Terry on April 28, 2021, 12:39:14 AM
About the 068 warning sign. I know Lionel made litho signs from about 1931 in the Winner, Lionel-Ives and later Lionel JR lines. They also made litho signs for Hafner. Those are white with black lettering. Yours is orange with black lettering. I'll have to dig out a Lionel JR sign so we can check the lettering.
I have at least a dozen of the green 068 warning signs. I have one with orange lattice post. The 068 seems to be one of the things Lionel was really consistant about. Any 068 that isn't green with a brass engraved sign is a great find.
Post by: starfire700 on April 28, 2021, 03:47:00 PM
The Hafner signs were only the larger 68, Standard gauge size.
Post by: starfire700 on April 28, 2021, 04:51:59 PM
From right to left I show 2 pea green with orange painted diamond, pea green with brass diamond with and without made in USA at top, orange / brass, peacock / brass,
silver and gray with diecast (may be from a gateman) and the LL Jr type, also LL Ives and Winner, diamond is the same blank as used for the clock in this set, not same as an 068. Final one is Standard gauge size Hafner, with post and base made by Lionel, litho diamond by Hafner.
Post by: starfire700 on April 28, 2021, 04:53:41 PM
Post by: murph-7 on April 28, 2021, 05:09:57 PM
Terry, this woulda been cool with that t/c 248 passenger set you just sold
Post by: early0electric on April 28, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Post by: early0electric on April 28, 2021, 08:11:08 PM
CTT, Jan 1995, pg 178.
Post by: Terry on April 28, 2021, 09:42:48 PM
Here's the three types I have:
Comparison of lettering sizes:
Based on the signs I have the ones with Made in USA at the top are later and seem to be from 1935/36 at the earliest. All mine have For THE locomotive.
I base the date on the 45/045 gatemen that were introduced in 1935. The first gatemen have darker red and green colors and silver painted lattice posts. Mine does not have the "Made In USA" lettering. Later gatemen have closed silver painted posts with USA lettering. These can have brass or nickel finials, but always have brass signs. The last gateman has a gray painted post with a blackened finial and a brass sign with the USA lettering.
45 gatement with oldest on left.
The gray post gateman has a decal on the toolbox lid and would be a 45N.
Next time it rains we can do the 68 and 69/069.
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 04:46:35 AM
I did not recognize that some have the word "THE" and some don't, just made in USA and not.
Also note in the last pix that I posted with the blank brass sign, one pea green 068 has an extra large factory hole in a corner, as if it was made for a wire terminal. I can't think of an electric accessory that is on this post, so not sure why that base would be factory-stamped as such. Any ideas?
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 05:59:32 AM
I submit the following on the subject
I have several 45N late gatemen with gray post, black top cap and diecast cross-buck
Late gray 068's one with painted bottom is one most likely to have not come from a gateman
I noticed the P green 068 with extra hole actually has 2 extra holes 1 for ground and 1 for hot terminal, but what would it have been made for?
Note the difference in terminology of what is to be looked out for...Engine, Locomotive, Train
2 different Hafner and 2 different Am Flyer
Ives crossing diamonds
Final deluxe brass diamond on ringing signal
Last, the German mfg's, Marklin in this case, got right to the point.....HALT some versions probably for export say STOP
Post by: early0electric on April 29, 2021, 09:33:43 AM
All the rest of mine are the common pea green with the brass sign.
Post by: Terry on April 29, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Is the metal the same thickness as the regular units. I can't find my Lioneljr signs, but I think they were thinner?
Here's the postwar version of the sign on a 1045 flagman:
That's thin aluminum with printed - not engraved - lettering.
The man is half blue and half brown. He might have been "repaired" by combining parts from an earlier brown man.
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 01:13:39 PM
The LL Jr bases look the same, size, shape, mount holes and metal gauge, but no electric application on the Jr signals.
Since the extra holes would be a separate operation from the blank or form process, they would have had to be done deliberately.
I hate to guess at these things, but possibly something illuminated may have been planned for that size base, pieces were produced, then used for regular production.
I can think of several Marx items that have slots or holes for features planned, but never made regular production. The 3556 scale series caboose was planned to be illuminated with marker lights. Early examples have the marker holes, but it was never made with the markers. Eventually the 2 punches were removed from the tool and the holes disappeared.
Post by: Terry on April 29, 2021, 01:30:32 PM
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 01:47:30 PM
Post by: Terry on April 29, 2021, 02:39:46 PM
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 04:16:30 PM
Post by: starfire700 on April 29, 2021, 04:34:33 PM
Someone else's guess may be better than mine, or maybe there is proof.
Post by: early0electric on April 30, 2021, 09:08:14 AM
Post by: starfire700 on April 30, 2021, 01:54:01 PM
Post by: Terry on May 11, 2021, 06:13:48 PM
Here's the set:
This is a very late 38 maybe 1923-24? It's the same color as a common 33 loco. The loco had a binding post, but it's now missing.
This is the hidden gem:
A 36 Observation car with the numbers on the side. The numbers on the side were dropped in the mid teens - 1914 or so. This car with latch couplers, lights, oil label, and early 500 series trucks is from the mid 1920s.
The three 35 Pullman cars have the normal number on the end - two say "No. 35," one says only "35."
So in this 5 piece set I got two trains I didn't have. A good find.
Post by: starfire700 on May 13, 2021, 01:09:24 PM
Post by: early0electric on May 19, 2021, 06:10:27 PM
Post by: Terry on May 21, 2021, 12:55:38 PM
Post by: early0electric on May 22, 2021, 12:01:38 PM
Post by: early0electric on May 29, 2021, 08:35:28 PM
Post by: Terry on May 29, 2021, 11:18:50 PM
I bought a 116 dump and three 112 gondolas. Two gondolas and a dump were different and I didn't have the signal. I have six with maroon bases but none with mohave!
One of the cars was a gray gondola with black lettering. I looked at all my 100 series cars. Most of them have no stamps on the bottoms, but when they do it matches the ink on the side. I did find a dark green 116 hopper, a light gray 116, and a dark gray 112 gondola with black lettering.
I think the green hopper is late teens, but the two gray cars are mid-20s cars based on the trucks having dimples.
I also found two orange 32 baggage cars - one with the understamp in black, one in gold. I have two sets of orange cars all cars have gold lettering on the bodies. The 35 pullmans have no stamps on the bottom, 5 cars - 1X baggage, 2X combine and 2X observation have black stamps. Only the one baggage has a gold stamp. and is an odd car in another way.
The 32 bagagge with gold lettering on the bottom has extra doors on the vestibules. This is a commonly found factory error, that I think only comes on the orange cars. The regular black bottom stamped car has no doors on the ends.
I also looked at my other 0 cars. I have no O gauge cars with black understamps. I have early body 610 cars in mohave with oil labels, and a matching observation with a gold stamp on the bottom.
Post by: starfire700 on May 30, 2021, 09:40:33 AM
When you find local trains is it from other collectors in the area, or are there still "original owner" trains in Arizona?
Post by: Terry on May 30, 2021, 02:22:11 PM
Most of the trains I buy are original owners or their children who moved to AZ. I ask questions when I buy trains. Some observations:
The pattern is the train owner moved out of his parent's house and left the train. When he was in his fifties, his parents moved out of their house and sent him the trains. Going even further, if the trains are boxed and certainly if there is a setbox the originial owner was an only child. Usually a setbox means a grandmother lived with the familiy when the man was a child.
These trains were from a NJ operator who passed and ended up with the son in AZ. He went to a local coffee meet - no sales just a bunch of train guys hanging out and drinking coffee - and the club people told him to contact my freind and I through our AZ train show website. The old man was playing with the trains and repainting them in odd colors. Ruins them for collectors, but he had fun. I bought some items he hadn't painted on yet.
Post by: Terry on January 22, 2022, 10:11:31 PM
The car in the front is missing the lettering in the white stripe. The other side has the lettering like the car in the rear. An interesting factor error.
Post by: Terry on January 29, 2022, 11:01:45 PM
This car only says "New York Central." EVERY other car and loco I looked at says New York Central Lines like the lower car in the photo above.
This car has stamped brass steps, metal tanks, early 500 series trucks and looks to have had an oil label. I have other green cars with oil labels - all have the same features as this but for the missing Lines.
This car has a bit of masking tape on the bottom that says I bought it in 1985, "No 'Lines"' and some code that means nothing to me today.