Train99 Forum
Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: early0electric on September 28, 2020, 03:05:35 PM
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Hey! All of you lying in the weeds out there. I don't know if you're working or retired or what but I'm sure you've got something to say or contribute. You may not think it's so but posts keep this site going. I find it more informative than the TCA site (Should I even say that???). It doesn't have to be rare or earth shattering or whatever but post something. You can post either about what you collect, a recent find, some history, some estate sale, somebody you knew who collected trains, it doesn't matter. You don't have to post every day or every week. There's no competition here for who has the most posts. It's all informal and informational and besides, you may make a new friend...Mike
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I'll use this as a place to post some ideas of where I'd like to see the forum go in the future.
There is also a blog on the train99 website. That side has articles with pictures of Lionel trains from the 1926-42 period. I've moved most of the old site over to the blog format. The pictures on the blog side can be seen by anyone. Here in the forum, only logged in members can see the pictures.
I'll be adding articles in the future about specific trains like the ones that are there, and then link to a post in the forum that contains more detailed information.
So for example if I did a post about the Lionel 33 loco, I would just give basic history and mention the colors availible. Then link to the post about body/headlight variations, and link to a new post for color/lettering variations. With the forum, I can put pictures from any post into any other post.
This means that if someone posted a picture of a different 33 later in the thread, I can add it to the first post.
So basically, the first post in the thread will have all the information about that item in it, the rest of the posts will be us sharing and dicsussing the train. Those posts will stay there, and we can add new posts as information or variations are found.
Terry
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Agreed, Hey all you new members, the crickets are chirping! We would like to hear from you about your collection, your layout or anything that you have to say about trains. Don't be intimidated by the technology or the items we have posted. You can always ask if you have any "how to" questions, and I bet you will get several rapid-fire answers. We all have favorite trains, exciting finds and good stories, if not we would not still be collecting after 40 or more years. Lets hear from you.
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If you want chatter, I got lots of it. Had a question about freight car numbers. I know this is probably elementary knowledge to you trainers, but I have been trying to sort out all the different numbered cars. I have been looking at the larger cars. 810 crane right up to 817 caboose, but I see the refrigeration car is 820. What is 818 /819.
Thanks Loco
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Refrigerator is 814R
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Thanks Brian My mistake I realized I should of said search light car is 820 correct? Do you know what 818//819 is? Thanks Loco
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The car numbers basically follow a series from 11 to 17 based on Lionels first cars. The 18 and 19 were passenger cars.
The last digit denotes the type of car.
Standard gauge and top of the line O gauge from about 1930 are
1 flatcar
2 gondola
3 stock
4 box
5 tank
6 hopper
7 caboose
8 not used
9 dump
0 is crane as 10 or later 60
0 is floodlight as 20
Smaller O gauge have same as above, but the middle cars are different. Mike probably knows more than me, but I'd bet it because the O gauge cars had different number series and the 1920s hopper and tank cars were considered additions to the earlier series.
3 stock is hopper
4 box is tank
5 tank is boxcar
6 hopper is stock
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818 is a boxed set of 4 800-large series cars, 812, 814, 816 and 817. 819 is a boxed set of 4 600-series cars, 653, 654, 655 and 657. 650 series cars do not follow the same numbers as the early cars or the larger 800 series. Then there is also small 4 wheel 800 series. 2800 series and 2650 series cars were added when Lionel developed automatic couplers in 1938, and a few 3650 and 3800 series automatic cars came along in 1939.
Yes it is confusing, but when you have been into trains for near 50 years, it comes natural.
If you are to get serious about trains, I strongly recommend that you get the book Lionel Trains, Standard of the World, published by the TCA. It is the most complete and accurate book on all prewar Lionel, O, Standard, OO and accessories. It is not a price guide, but those are worthless these days anyway. You should be able to find on on Ebay. Make sure you get the second edition and that the paint color chip chart is included. This book will help you make sense out of Lionel's prewar numbering system, show or describe all variations, years items were produced, department store specials etc etc. Jim
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thanks fellows! will check out the book, just being lazy to ask . Have to do some home work. lol Loco
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Most of us "oldies" learned about trains and determined the direction that trains would take us before any of the books were available. In the 1970's McCommas and Touhy published their postwar and prewar books, before that there were Ladd pocket guides and some books by Louis Hertz, and a few others. The best way to learn was to just get out there and buy what you liked. I remember the feeling in the early 1970's being led into the back room of a shop called the Roundhouse in a Chicago suburb. I saw Lionel prewar trains for the first time, and new I would switch from postwar to prewar. I think a burnt orange 2812 gondola was one of my first prewar purchases. Unfortunately some of the established collectors of the time treated trains like a secret society. Fortunately the Chicago area had plenty of flea markets, antique shows and a train show started up at the DuPage Co fairgrounds, that would become one of the largest in the nation. I finally met some friendly collectors who signed me up for TCA and took a bank loan for our first trip to York Pa, the Mecca of train collecting. Seeing items for the first time, that I did not know existed was magical. Being a new collector, you can experience that feeling, and in this economy there is no shortage of trains available. Have fun!
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For the 800 series cars I did articles on them back when I collected them
Here's the introduction:
https://train99.com/prewar-0-gauge/lionel-800-and-2800-series-freight-cars/ (https://train99.com/prewar-0-gauge/lionel-800-and-2800-series-freight-cars/)
The 800 series cars with brass plates and latch couplers are mostly cheap. With the exception of the short wheelbased caboose and the maroon frame tank, none will cost more than about $100 in nice shape, and a lot of them are less than $50.
One note. When we say 800 series cars we mean these big freight cars in the 810-820 number series. While the little four wheel cars also have 800 numbers we call those four-wheel cars.
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The early 0 gauge freight cars are a bit screwy as the last digit of the 8 wheel car numbers didn't automatically transfer to the 4 wheel cars.
8-wheel 4-wheel
820 Boxcar 800 Boxcar
821 Stock car 802 Stock car
822 Caboose 801 Caboose
NM Gondola 901 Gondola
NM Hopper car 803 Hopper
NM Tank car 804 Tank car
NM Flat car 831 Flat car
The 803 and 804 even though cataloged in 1923 are considered 2nd generation cars due to the added trim.
I included the 831 because it can be found with hook couplers.
By the way, I recommend "Collecting Model Trains" by Louis Hertz. Always a wealth of info.
Mike
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invaluable lesson right there, thanks fellows. I first bought the small series 800, now I am going for the large 800 series. I haven't been buying premium cars, Just an average one puts a smile on my face. You guys are lucky, your part of the world is like a kid in a candy store. Trains up here are slim pick'ins. I would love to go to a train show, shop around and buy some stuff, oh well ebay it is. Loco
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Could someone enlighten me on the difference between the 511 lumber car and the 811. Color difference? Loco
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Size.
You need to buy this book:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Trains-Standard-of-the-World-1900-1943-by-National-Tca-Book-Committee/283513144495?epid=987358&hash=item4202b344af:g:YYYAAOSwEcxc~4uw (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Trains-Standard-of-the-World-1900-1943-by-National-Tca-Book-Committee/283513144495?epid=987358&hash=item4202b344af:g:YYYAAOSwEcxc~4uw)
This one is cheaper, but might not ship to Canada:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Trains-Standard-of-the-World-1900-1943-2nd-Edition-TCA-Book-Committee/114491228005?hash=item1aa8357f65:g:7y0AAOSwvUdff2mu (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Trains-Standard-of-the-World-1900-1943-2nd-Edition-TCA-Book-Committee/114491228005?hash=item1aa8357f65:g:7y0AAOSwvUdff2mu)
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Loco - The Train Collectors Association has a Pacific Northwest Division which includes BC. You might want to consider contacting them for membership and membership to the TCA. If you join I believe you will get access to The Standard of the World book online AND access to 50+ years of the TCA Quarterly. Might be worth checking out.
Mike
http://www.traincollector.org/
http://www.tcamembers.org/membership/divisions/find/index.shtml
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thanks
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Loco, In answer to your 511 vs 811 question.....
the 811 is classic period large series O gauge and the 511 is classic period small series standard gauge.
That is some of the "basic" knowledge that the TCA Standard of the World book can give you in a nutshell
as example, just to give a quick overview of prewar flatcars Lionel produced.....
Standard gauge 11, 511, 211 and O gauge 831, 811, 2811, 651, 2651, 3651 and 3811. I think I have them all, if you don't count the Madison hardware "backroom production".
Most series' kept the numbers consistent (all flats end in # 1), but some got thrown off when early O gauge was produced and numbered (800, 801, 802......)
Also the evolution of numbers follows eras and features, such as gauge, automatic couplers and operating mechanisms.
I can't stress enough how much the TCA book will clarify this.
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Thanks I will get one.
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Has anyone tried powder coating any restoration projects. Just wondering how that would work?
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Powder-coating requires the powdered paint being applied through an electrostatic process to the metal surface, then baked-on in a special oven. The equipment necessary would make this difficult to do except in a shop set-up for powder-coating. I believe the item first has to go through a cleaning process before coating. A local shop might do this for you, but costs and minimum quantities could be a problem. We powder-coated loco boilers, cabs and other parts, plus car frames when we produced Marx Trains in the 1990's. The result is a very smooth/hard finish, also a thick finish. We would have to grind the paint off of 1 side of tabs, so they would fit through slots, when hand-assembling locos.
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Do you have any pictures of something finished in powder coat? I was wondering about the thickness of the paint being a problem, when putting all the lttle trim pieces back on
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I was thinking the same thing Loco? I had a problem yesterday with one of the Lionel 1700’s I mess with the vestibule was to high and not moving well. Causing the second car to derail. I would think power coating the finish would be thicker?
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I guess maybe using a primer, might not be good either for thickness. Have you had that problem with using primer?
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Yes. Primer does add to the thickness. Causes problems with the tabs getting into the slots.
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Can you use any paint without primer, or does it have to be a self primer paint.
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I’m not sure I should say anything on this. I’m not a paint expert. You need to talk to my friend Richard in Louisiana. He is a world-class museum piece restorer and painter. He uses automotive paint with a airbrush. His work is the best I’ve ever seen. You will never see a blemish in his work. He will not stand for it.
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love guys like that, if you do it do it right. I might try restoring a beatup box car I have. Just fishing around for paint procedures. I'm pretty sure I won't be airbrushing it, haven't ever done that. Spray bomb it is.
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Krylon use to sell a great spray can with a special head. It did a fine fan spray. But I can’t find it anymore. I email Krylon and showed them what a mess there new head does. Showed what I had been using. They didn’t seem to understand that there current product was junk. They did ask for the numbers on the bottom of the can and offered to refund my money? So they did the right thing but I don’t want to use my airbrush anymore. If I have to go b ack to that I’ll just stop restoring. I told them I don’t want a refund I want to old good spray head back.
My friend (Richard) told me that ACE hardware has a can spray that’s like the old Krylon but with CV-19 and all I’m trying to stay at home. I still have a few cans of the good head so when they are done I’m am too. Sherwin Williams said to use the old good heads on the new cans of paint. Didn’t work. Different size!
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They sell heads for spray cans. The grafitti people do them. So do the big outdoor muralists. Maybe you find them at an arts and crafts store?
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Thanks for that information Terry. I’ll look into that.
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Don't you hate when they change a product for the worst. It was probably cheaper to make the shitty spray head. But I will definitely look into the graffiti spray head your talking about Terry. Terry you sound like you have restored more than one or two projects, do you use a primer or just spray the paint on bare metal? And also was wondering if you put thin coats on. Thanks Loco
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I only used primer when the color wouldn't cover well. For example the maroon on hiawathas came out a candy color on bare metal. The gray and orange covered well. I put a thin coat on, then a day or two later, did a thick coat.
Just a thick coat results in fish eyes. The first thin coat provides a uniform bonding coat, and if a fish eye develops in the first coat, I could scuff it and fill it in with a brush before the second thick coat.
I started repainting trains in 1977. Mostly just stuff to play with, a few peices a year.
Then I repainted a lot of trains in the period 1989-2002. This was done for money. Back then you could make money doing it. I'd buy a 97 coal loader that was badly scratched for $10 and repaint it with the paint I had, and get a hundred for it. Or a City iof Portland set for $75-100 and sell it for $300 after painting it. I also did a lot of frames and steam chests on steam locos.
I used custom matched automotive enamal that the store packed into spray cans for me.
I stopped doing restorations when my business took off, and the prices of repaints went down. In about 2002 the prices for good repaintable trains went up because of ebay, but the selling prices of repainted trains dropped.
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thanks for the info. Sounds like it is only really worth it, to do it for yourself. I did have a can or two of auto paint made up one time at a parts store, If I remember right they did spray really nice. Might look into that.
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I am not a painting expert but some primers are not compatible with other brand paints.
If your using Rustoleam I would stick with a Rustoleum primer, the same for Krylon.
A lot of paints in a rattle can are now top coat & primer.
I have recently been using Krylon black, primer and top coat, not on trains but I like the results.
By the way Krylon is a product of Sherwin Williams. Sherwin Williams took over Valspar products too.
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Krylon has changed the spray head on there ’ MAXX ultimate coverage’ can. The head on that can was red with a brass tube up the center. It delivered a fine spray. It did a beautiful job. Now they have a cheap head the spits paint. Really sucks.
Terry was saying the you can get replacement heads with different spray abilities. I did look them up but as of yet I’ve not tried any? There are so many different heads I didn’t really know what to get. I tried to swap out a good head for one of the new heads but could not get the good fine spray head off the old can.
Best to use a airbrush if you want a real good job. I’m getting to old to fuss with it! I’m getting acceptable results so far.
Having allot of fun with the Lionel 1700’s. I keep looking for 1700’s that need a new home but at a good price. There are some on EBay but way over priced. They also look real nice which is why the price is high.